Feedback on the Undergames

Richard Wood 5 years ago in General Feedback updated by Rudolph Reindeer 5 years ago 11

It's just downright irritating and borderline impossible to complete on master (and there's no point playing it on easy as you don't unlock the achievements)

I've been playing for hours since it was released and I've managed to complete 1 level and that was a 5 hour grind. 

It doesn't help that it's set up to cheat, the AI starting with levelled up units. 

I've logged over 1600 hours on WTFO and this is the first time I've turned it off in disgust over an official release. I really regret buying the expansion now.

Satisfaction mark by Richard Wood 5 years ago
Under review

Hey Richard, 

I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying the undergames. 

First of all the AI does not cheat, it is limited to the exact same restrictions you are. You can prove this if you'd like by pressing Scroll Lock, entering 'GreatStuff' then pressing F4 followed by F7. This will allow you to see the entire map and watch what the AI is doing to produce such high level units. 

The master AI is faster, more efficient and more knowledgeable that most players can hope to be. It has been built as an ultimate challenge for the player. We do not expect players to be able to launch the game and beat it without putting effort into understanding what it's doing. 

I would recommend to anyone playing that they stay away from master until they can handily beat medium and hard. 

I will verify the complaint about achievements. As far as I know you should be able to get achievements on the medium and hard difficulties. I will check and get back to you. 

First of all the AI does not cheat, it is limited to the exact same restrictions you are. 

Can you confirm this is still the case with all themed AI?

In Skirmish all AI are subject to the same limitations based on Difficulty. Themes have no effect on their gameplay through their personalities do feature different build orders. In the Under Games the AI of course benefits from the Underlord traits that match their personality like the player does.

Other than the AI being able to act incredibly fast and super optimised at the highest difficulty levels it does not gain any other passive benefits that the player would not have access to. In some cases the Master AI could possibly be considered to have a superhuman APM (Though it could be argued this is skewed because it interacts with a game in a different manner from a human) and a level of omnipresence from areas it can see. Depending on your perspective these could be considered cheats as they do not emulate human behaviour in this way, but similarly it does not have the benefits of human levels of creativity and strategising. So this should balance out.

It's worth noting that the Master level AI was designed to challenge the very best players of WFTO. It was trained by them and its strategies and behaviours are an emulation of theirs. It uses the same strategies and even uses some mechanics creatively to get the best benefits. Things like the Transmutation chamber, unit spawn timing and manipulation and efficiency optimisation are all used to maximum effect and that's not something that the average player is familiar with, but are all techniques developed by our players.

Thanks for the response Lee!

Had to ask since I encountered a master AI defender on a core shard map(Silverstorm Siege, the one in Community Spotlight) that I believe had unlimited gold based on the unfathomable amount of gold used to heal its units with only a 16k limit from Core(no treasuries). Might be another late-game-quirk thing or map odity, haven't seen it before so wanted to make sure I hadn't missed an AI change.

Apologies, should have used personality instead of theme.

nice tip on the reveal map, should be interesting to watch, there's no organic way to produce levelled up units that fast. might be there are a load hidden on the map i'll watch it and see.

Completely understand your point about you shouldn't be able to log in and walk everything but I'm hardly a noob to DK / WTFO so it shouldn't be that overpowered that it slaughters me over and over.

Been chatting on the forum with some of the other players and picked up a few ideas to work around it like running at low speed.

Some achievements are done regardless some are specific to 'complete this stage on master'

thanks Rich


As an extension of the fact that you shouldn't be able to login and stomp the AI, is that you should have to work for some achievements.

Have a look at the AI and you will see that you're missing some tricks to get strong units quickly

Just tried the reveal map you suggetsed and I couldn't get it to work, the console shows *require password. Any ideas?

You need to first enter the password I gave you "GreatStuff"

got it sorry I wasn't putting in the second capital letter on Stuff

I'm sorry i appreciate the help but it is totally impossible. I've supported this game since the beta but i'm done. 

I've been at it for 3 days solid, dozens of attempts.

Utterly impossible. and yes it does cheat I watched it insta spawning defences over and over.

goodbye best of luck with WTFO in the future but I won't be playing it.

i completed undergames with volta on medium setting, want to try the other underlords first before attempting master...sounds like its challenging.

a challenge worthy of an underlord